[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Consulting Specifying Engineer podcast. I'm your host, Anna Steingruber, and today I'm here with Doug Bauer, the Director of Applied Sales for LG Electronics, to discuss the refrigerant transition. Doug Bauer currently serves as the Senior Director of applied sales for LG Electronics USA. He has 20 years of experience in a multitude of roles ranging from H VAC sales to product management and marketing. Prior to joining LG nearly six years ago, Doug served in multiple roles at SPX Cooling Technologies, Barnes Group and Eaton Corporation. He has an engineering degree from Alfred University and an MBA from Dartmouth College. Thank you so much for joining us today, Doug. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: So, to start, can you just give me an overview of why this refrigerant change is happening and what regulations are currently driving the change?
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I can. You know, back in 1987, there was something called the Montreal Protocol, and that was, that was about the globe basically trying to reduce ozone depletion at the time. And then they did that through refrigerant changes going from R12 to R22 to R410 a, which we have now. And then back in 2016, there was something called the Kigali Amendment, another kind of global movement to switch from ozone depletion to give global warming potential a focus. And so that means not just getting rid of CFCs and HCFCs of the past, but actually going after HFC components which, which affect global warming. And so to do that, you have to lower the global warming potential of the refrigerant that you're using or whatever HFC production that you're doing. And so the United States to, to be aligned with the Kigali Amendment, did something called the AIM act, which gave the EPA the ability to phase out HFCs, which is not just refrigerants, but includes refrigerants. And so they basically put in this production schedule reducing HFCs, which then led our governing bodies like ASHRAE to put in some, some adjustments with, with how, how that would happen in different years. So that's why it's happening. It's all to help out the environment with lowering the global warming.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Great. And so as this is happening, what are some of the common misconceptions that you're seeing about this refrigerant change?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: There's been a bunch of. But if I highlight just a couple, we'll start with one that I don't hear as much anymore. But definitely a year ago it was coming up A lot. And that is that there'd be another refrigerant change within five years.
Like I had mentioned, there's a production schedule reduction of HFCs over time as outlined by what the AIM act is trying to do.
And you know, we actually talked with people that authors of the AIM act and they said that they don't expect another refrigerant change for at least a decade. And so that has been something that we've had to deal with because R32, which is the primary refrigerant that we have, is slightly higher than some of the R454B refrigerants that are out there. So people thought that maybe one would be long term good and the other one wouldn't. But the real case is, is that the next refrigerant change will likely be at such a large drop that both refrigerants would need to be changed again. This won't be happening for a decade. So there's, there's one, no, another refrigerant change happening anytime soon after this one second has to do with perceived dangers of an A2L refrigerant.
An A2L refrigerant is a slightly flammable refrigerant. And so as we reduce global warming potential, the flammability increased a little bit.
But A2Ls, even though they're, you know, they can sustain a flame without an energy source, which made them A2Ls, they had to create another category called A2L because you know, how the refrigerant, if it's burning, you know, it does not spread very quickly. All refrigerants burn. A2Ls don't burn very quickly. For example, R32 spreads at less than 2.6 inches per second.
So, you know, I like to tell people it's the worst Michael Bay movie of all time. There will be no explosions.
And so it's, it's definitely something that we believe will be very safe, especially when you consider the amount of refrigerant in a H vac circuit will be finite. And you know, you can compare that to natural gas in your house, which has like an unlimited supply of a much more flammable gas.
And yet we can handle that without a problem.
And then the last misconception is really that you need sensors at pipe connections or in shafts.
You don't require those in either place.
If there's a thyroid shaft that has ventilation that you want to make mechanical, you can add a sensor to not have it naturally ventilated. But Besides that, any piping, it's the same type of strength and leak check that should have been done for however long the products have existed.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: And so as we're facing this transition, what are some of the challenges or opportunities that do you think are going to come with this?
[00:06:13] Speaker B: There's a couple challenges. I mean, the biggest one really has to do with regulations and codes being finalized for some of the longer building cycle opportunities that are out there.
You know, then you can have a building that may take multiple years to design. And so if a regulation or a code isn't done, there's a perception of risk that comes along with that.
And so hri, you know, they have on their website what the current situation is on where, where, which states have codes that are done being adopted and which ones are still working things out. But that's been, that's been our biggest challenge is to, to understand what the rules are in all situations so we can get the best design for those rules possible.
That said, with opportunities, you know, there's a, there's a couple of things. One, the refrigerant that we're moving to is more efficient, higher capacity and uses a smaller charge.
And it's also not a blend. So all those things are really improving the efficiency of the product, how much refrigerant is in the product, what type of capacities we can handle with the same equipment. And then the fact that it's not a blend means you can charge it whether it's in a liquid or a gas phase, more easily.
So there's a lot of benefits to that refrigerant.
At the same time, vrf, which is what LG sells a lot of in the United States, they added something called mitigation controls, which was not in the ASHRAE 15 regulations in the past.
And so these mitigation controls are allowing sensors and valves within the equipment such that you can actually design with a little bit more flexibility than you had in the past. Less ambiguity of what you can and can't do and have the potential to do smaller room sizes than you may have done in the past. Because we have something that can shut off the refrigerant before it gets to a concentration.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: And so how do you think that the refrigerant change will impact the H VAC market? And are there any things specifically that specifying engineers should know about shifts in demand or in the supply chain?
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah, so there's a few things to think about in the short term. It's really back to the codes that I was mentioning before.
So that's specifying engineers should work with a local applied rep, for example, to make sure they understand what the current codes and what the current needs are.
We'll be able to get you those answers. In the long term though, I don't see much change because I don't believe that the refrigerant change is going to do have much negative effect on the industry. It will simply make things like in R32's case, more efficient and higher capacity and easier to use with less environmental impact. So all positives from the long term standpoint in terms of what specifying engineers should know, they really need to know what the rules are, what the latest is like I mentioned.
And they should be able to get that information from their OEM of whatever equipment that they have. Lg, for example, has sales tools that help with piping, help with refrigerant calculations with the new rules that have come out. And so, you know, there's a lot of importance on making sure that you're doing those calculations correctly. So let, let the OEM sales tools help you.
Also, there's an overlap that people might not realize between the two refrigerants. There's a year of sell through for 410A products below the 65,000 BTU. So your normal kind of air conditioning, home air conditioning types. And then there's been an EPA proposed year sell through also for your larger VRF system. So there may be more opportunity as you're, you know, you might not have to switch immediately. You can look at where your product or project is to make sure that that's happening right and choose the best option for you.
And then also the last thing is that the way that those kind of codes are written is that for split systems like with VRF or with your home air conditioner, the dates that they're talking about are, are really about when refrigerant is added to the system in a lot of cases for the end of the sell through periods and whether it's imported or manufactured in the United States. And so keep in mind those things too about, you know, different systems might have different critical dates involved of when you have to have one refrigerant or switch to another.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Great. And so my last little question here is just could you share some innovative solutions or new technologies that are making this transition smoother or a little bit more sustainable?
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Yes, I can talk about a couple things. First has to do with those mitigation controls, you know, the, the sensors and the valves that we're talking about that are allowed per ASHRAE 15 they are incorporated into the equipment, at least for LG. And so there should be very limited impact to the installation.
And then the tools that we are making available to check calculation limits and things like that, concentration limits of the refrigerant will enable the design to be pretty smooth as well. And so between the two, you have again why I was saying there probably isn't much of a long term impact and that's made the transition to be pretty smooth.
And because of those mitigation controls, again there may be some more flexibility in designing your system. So that's another good news.
In terms of more sustainable something in the future.
There's a couple things when I think of the environment. One, your, your even existing 410A systems that are out there will be over time using more and more recycled refrigerant because the again the production of the HFCs and the 410A refrigerant will decrease.
But manufacturers like LG have been required and you know, excited to move that refrigerant to a recycled refrigerant and have pushed out some recycled refrigerant into the market to enable that to happen. So that definitely helps with the sustainability.
And then also in terms of service, there's no regulatory end of life for components on a split system.
So even though that you may have to, when you're putting in a totally new system, switch over to the new refrigerant. If you have an existing 410A and you're looking some, you know, an outdoor unit, for example, breaks down, you'll be able to with the regulation be able to switch out that component of the system with, with no end date. So as long as the manufacturer is, is making them, you'll be able to get access to it. So again it'll be sustainable in that you won't have to change out your system necessarily with what we will have of it.
Great.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Well, thank you for all of that. Is there anything else that you wanted to say, anything you didn't touch on that you think needs to be included?
[00:14:02] Speaker B: I think the key again is to work with your local office or local applied rep to get as much information as there is or even reach out to the oem because there's likely more information and easier ways to do things than what you may think.
And so lean on us to help you through this transition because it's just the uncertainty in the short term that will be any problem. Beyond that this should be very easy.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Right. Well again this has been really wonderful, so thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you taking the time to come talk about this.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Great. And for everybody listening, once again, this has been Doug Bauer talking about the refrigerant change and its impact on the H Vac market. For more information on refrigerants or other H Vac topics, you can visit consulting specifying
[email protected]. don't forget to check in every other Tuesday for new episodes. And thank you for listening.
