Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Consulting Specifying Engineer podcast. I'm your host, Amara Rasgas, and I've connected with Todd Shackelford and Pratibha Basrao from hdr. Today we're speaking about new technologies that are changing the way engineers do their jobs. Thanks for joining me today. Todd and Pratibha, how are you doing?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Great. Thanks for having us.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: All right, so here's a little bit of background about Todd. He's based out of Nebraska, and Pratiba, who is based out of California. They are both together today.
So let me give you some background about each of their positions.
Todd Shackelford is an area BIM Manager for HDR where he brings efficiency to technical processes and clarity to software users. Todd is also a digital design faculty member at the University of Nebraska, a former Revit MEP content Manager for Augie World magazine, and a founder of the Omaha BIM Collaborative and the Central States Revit workshops.
Pratibha Basrao is the Applied Technology Officer for hdr. She oversees all technologies that are used within HDR to deliver projects for their consulting services.
All right, so new technologies are everywhere. And while engineers may be reluctant to always use them right away, they do need to stay on top of these advancements. So, Todd, let me ask you, how do you personally approach the prioritization and synchronization of adapting new technologies?
[00:01:40] Speaker C: You know, when I we see so many things happen, you know, and when they come, I'm always thinking about the value of what it is because a lot of things are really cool and neat to look at.
But I really got to say, how does that affect what we produce and what we make?
There's internal value that's good for us as a design company. There's external value that is good for the client, and there's definitely value in the present and value in the future.
And sometimes I think one of our most difficult things is when we perceive a future value and we know that there's energy involved in making change. And change in engineering is usually not great rate engineers, I'm picking on myself here, but engineers, we kind of get into ruts and we like. We like them.
So when there's a future value out there and I've got to upset processes that we're using to go towards something like that, I think those things are probably are toughest, but we really have to think of what that is and is the amount of energy we're going to put into a change going to pay off later on?
I don't know.
Prabhupada has Anything else to add to that or. I think you experience that a lot in your job.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah, as part of my role, Todd, we evaluate a lot of new technologies and how we onboard them. So to your point, the value of what that technology brings to our practice is very important and we like to align that value to our strategic goals for our organization. So that's kind of our first lens that we look at. And, and then after that we do our stakeholder engagement, do our risk benefit analysis.
Obviously, cost is a big factor and we have to consider total cost of ownership, not just of buying the software, but also of the impact to hardware, impact on cybersecurity and data management practices. So all of that we have to consider.
And then we like to do pilot projects where possible, working with our vendor partners and seeing, you know, how it gets implemented. And that gives us a good idea about the change ramifications. Like what are we going to ask our engineers, architects, to change as part of their workflows. And sometimes it's a, you know, the resistance to change is the Achilles heel sometimes and we have to weigh that, the effort it's going to take to get past that.
So, yeah, I mean, my office is quite involved in those processes and that's how we traditionally we have approached it. And we've also found out that even after we adopt something new, we have to continuously monitor it and see how it's being implemented throughout our practice.
[00:04:43] Speaker C: I like that you said that because I think about a lot of times you do all your homework and you get this thing and if you don't support it and put the energy after the buy into it, then it's eventually a failure because it's not adopted. And like we said, there's a lot of people that don't want to go through change.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:03] Speaker C: But sometimes technology is like, we have the opposite problem and it's like buying a car. Like, you show them something, they're like, there are hearts in it and they just want to buy it without doing all the research and making sure this is a really good buy for me right now. So both of those dynamics happen simultaneously. That there is definitely a component of the, of your team that's very interested in this new software, whether it brings value or not. They're just so excited about it. And then others that are very not excited about it and finding that sweet spot of actually changing how we deliver things is that. That's a tough find.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: So speaking of change and accepting new technologies, how do data analytics or AI enhance project management or decision making? I mean, we're talking about the AEC sector here. So, Todd, let me start with you.
[00:05:55] Speaker C: You know, AI, for me, if I sum it up, I think what it should do is kind of kickstart what people do best, and that is figure things out.
And so I speak an analogy a lot. So my wife is an editor and she says it's a lot easier to edit a page with words on it than a blank one. And I think AI helps us throw out a whole lot in the beginning so that we have something to consider and we can definitely say this is better or this is worse and how do we want to go from one place to the other.
And then having on top of that being able to ask follow up questions or have data analytics kind of further confirm is this a good thing or a bad thing?
At the end of the day, these are tools that people are using to make decisions.
And I just see that continuing. I don't really see people are so nuanced. Situations are so nuanced. AI is very new.
Data analytics, all these things are how we're using them. We're all really new to it right now. At the end of the day, I just really feel like these are the things that help us go a little bit farther. I didn't think about that I should consider that. Or is this really better or not? It just helps us make decisions quicker and faster. And anything in this industry or in the world right now is telling me is that where we might have had a long time to think about things in the past and really consider stuff and make decisions slow.
More and more we make decisions quicker and quicker. The expectation is just go faster. So these tools really help us out. But at the end of the day, we're still making decisions.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: I agree, Todd. I, I think these technologies are essential. They are business imperative now to stay competitive and sustainable in this rapidly, rapidly evolving industry.
I think, you know, for, for several, last several years we were singularly focused on bringing data analytics and increasingly AI into our practices.
I think we've seen a lot of success when it comes to automated inspections using drones. So we now use AI algorithms in finding cracks or in finding issues during construction, identifying risks, things like that.
So we've had a lot of success with that.
We've also done a lot of energy modeling and simulation, so looking at how buildings, how good or bad they are in achieving sustainability goals and probably jumping a little bit ahead. But that's where AI has proven to be a very important technology.
And I think increasingly data analytics is a huge Part of project management and being able to forecast costs, being able to forecast risks before they even happen.
Having that kind of visibility is very important for project managers, for teams, for our clients too, to know what's coming up and what maybe potentially impacting their project.
What I'm really excited about with the new, with generative AI now becoming a very powerful tool, I think we focused a lot on parametric design and not as much on generative design.
But I think that's going to flip here in short order. And so that's something we're very excited about to see how, what kind of productivity gains or reduction in errors we can see with parametric design specifically.
So these are just some of the things that we're really looking at, these new technologies to help us deliver better solutions faster to our clients.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: I have a, like a follow up, weird question.
I've kind of noticed that, you know, if you go back generations, when designs were done in 2D, a lot of problems, most every problem was solved in the field. You know, so we went through the design and like the structural engineer was separate than, you know, the architect separate than everybody else. And then in the field you find out you have these, these issues because, you know, you really couldn't do things. So when we first started modeling in 3D, what we got out of that was like, oh, I can see these issues ahead of time and then we can do the design better in the beginning. And I've noticed this shift over the generations of problem solving up front versus problem solving at the end.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:57] Speaker C: And this is even more so. It's like, what can we front load in here?
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:00] Speaker C: And, and decide. And most everybody in the business knows if you solve it before you dig a hole, it's practically free to fix.
Once the hole is dug, it costs a lot of money to fix. So there's a real cost savings in there and then just a whole lot less wasted time.
Although I'm still kind of stuck on, I think it takes just as long to build anything. It's just that we're building it a lot more confidently and we know what we're doing.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah, good point. Very good point.
And I am glad that you touched on energy modeling. Pratibha.
How are sustainability goals being advanced through the integration of renewable energy systems or smart building technologies or passive design strategies?
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Sure, I, I can touch on that.
So I, I'm an architect by training, but it's been a while since I've designed many things.
So I, I think, you know, when it comes to our net Zero energy design designs and, and, and designing for net zero consumption. I think those are all great things. There is a lot in the industry around passive design strategies that are very exciting.
You know, making sure that we, we have cool roofs or the right amount of thermal massing or how you orient the buildings can or your infrastructure can have a tremendous impact on achieving those sustainability goals. As a, as a technologist, what I'm most excited about is smart buildings and really having those building level or facility level digital twins.
Because the more information, and this is really about making sure that the buildings are connected with smart devices that can track energy consumption in a real time or a near real time basis. So decisions can be made via building automation systems that can track lighting usage, H vac systems based on external conditions. So I think the more you can automate those things, the more visibility you have as you give, you provide to decision makers, the better outcomes we can have or we can realize in, you know, by leveraging these technologies. So what I'm really excited to see is not just smart buildings or being at the building level. I'm almost even more excited to see how say campus owners, universities, airports, maritime ports, like large infrastructure users, they manage their entire fleet of facilities in coordinated ways and they use these smart technologies to help them achieve their sustainability goals.
And you extend that and then you can have smart cities and you can really think through regional and national level goals to be sustainable. And I think that's where really scaling up those technologies makes it very exciting to see what we can do in the future.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: That's really cool.
I like what you're saying there. You know, a lot of what we've done so far has been in the building process, like how do we build something to be resilient and good for the environment, good for the inhabitants and stuff. But most of the building's lifespan is in the use of the building after it's been built, you know, and when you have those smart building technologies, that's when you start collecting data about how am I doing this and can I improve that? And the answer is always yes, I can make it a little bit better. But you can't do that without the data to know how things are going.
And when you started talking about, you know, smart cities and expanding that out, I was thinking about, you know, one of the ways we as a business, you know, perform at our best is when we work, share across diverse locations and stuff, you know, and I'm thinking about power sharing and things that you could do on a citywide list level. If, you know, if that infrastructure is there, and that opens up a lot of possibilities that are way, way down the road. This is not real soon, but it just opens up all these possibilities. Once we know what you have and have the ability to kind of move things around, it makes a lot of sense.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: So, Todd, you just brought up not being able to do things without data, but you also can't do things without the people.
So what challenges or opportunities arise from the convergence of the AEC technologies when you're dealing with the workforce or skills development or collaboration for that matter?
[00:16:09] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.
So I'm a little bit older. I've been around a while.
When I first started in the industry, I actually drafted by hand with pencil and ink. And here's what I've noticed. Things are more and more complex, and you don't have to be old to. To notice that just the amount of technologies that we touch in a single day is just exponentially grown.
I was doing a little bit of research. Like, you know, how much programs does an average person use in a day or just in their job, you know, and, you know, it's four or five things, but I think it's honestly 20 different things that you're trying to deal with. So complexity is really the issue that I think that we have a lot to deal with, you know, that, you know, you could be an expert in something in the old days, but now you have to be an expert in a lot of things to make things work in that moving data back and forth and keeping it whole and useful data without, you know, ruining it. That. That is something and what it means to me and my role is that, you know, I think in the past, if your company was like, really kind of open to education for people, then that was a good thing. You remove educational barriers. That's a really good thing.
Looking at the right now and into the future, I really think that you have to be really proactive as a company to engage in education, because the things that we are engaging with have shorter lifespan. So I need you to be an expert faster and also really open to the next change that's coming down the road. Like, I'm almost conditioning. I. I'm very much trying to condition employees to embrace and accept changes as they come and to be very open to things.
And when I say complexity at. At a business level, you can't. It's not like a classroom where everybody's in the eighth grade and they kind of have the same mental where whatever they kind of have at companies, we have employees that range all ages, that range all experience levels. They're all over the map and coming up with a way of educating the right people at the right time, meeting them where they're at. It's a difficult challenge to kind of make something like that happen. The office is not a normal classroom, but it's definitely a place where, I think when you invest in people where they're at and you help them move to the next place, that they're the high, high payoff for that. You know, you let them explore their career to their highest possible level. They're more fulfilled for doing what they're doing. And the company definitely benefits from people acting at the top their game or having access to things. So to me, addressing that complexity is really about making a workplace that helps people change by encouraging training. And maybe encouraging is too light of a word.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Todd, I, I will not reveal how old or young I am.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: Very young.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: However, you know, I, I've been in this industry for quite a while and, and what I've seen and what's exciting to me is to see how much technology and technology skills are being integrated with our engineering and design practices.
And I think that, that, that has a lot of opportunities and challenges. So when it comes to challenges, I think there are, you know, because of the vast array of technologies we use, and we need those skills to be interoperable between those.
And that takes a level of technology understanding, understanding more databases and data structures versus files. You know, we don't do files anymore.
So knowing where the data lives and how to protect it, how to work with it is a very important skill.
And as an educator, you, you know, and you're involved in how our younger workforce is being trained. And they, they come with those skills. And I'm really excited to see how some of our newer hires, they, they have the Python skills, they know what databases work look like, they know how to work on our major design platform. So that's really exciting to, to watch.
I think there is also a, a cultural shift that has happened in, in how we embrace technology. And it wasn't that when I first started out. I mean, I had to convince people I was telling the story recently is my first, first job. I had to. It took me, you know, a month to convince somebody to use a geospatial technology for that would have, that would do their work in, in a half a day versus hiring interns and putting them in a room and struggling over topographic maps to find certain things.
So it's amazing the kind of convincing I had to do back then versus what I have to do now. And today what I'm really excited to see is technology careers developing within our industry.
So there is room for data scientists, for data analysts, for technology, just experts that have created careers. And I was, when I started out in this industry, I was a trained architect, but like I said, I never really designed anything. I was just gravitated towards technology and built a career around that.
Now we have career paths for individuals, for BIM model for BIM managers or model managers for data scientists within our industry, in the context of our industry. And I think it's a very fulfilling kind of career choice for people that are so inclined and want to take that on.
There's just tons of opportunity in our industry and you have a chance to be in the driver's seat. So I love to encourage younger staff to opt for those careers.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: I think about what you just said, like how much, well, this complexity the industry has answered with a complexity of job, I guess just ways that you can go. I often tell people, it's like if you think of a doctor, that somebody's going to take care of me, but actually that one doctor, there's a million. I'll send you to a foot specialist or a nose specialist. There's so many specialities now inside of engineering construction and just the.
In the technology area, we are really experiencing a lot of job. You know, BIM manager didn't exist when I got into it. You know, like you, I wanted to be an architect, you know. And you find your way into all these technologies. That, that. That is probably not the question, but a really cool observation.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: I don't see a lot of people talking about this technology challenge. So pra. Let me ask you what ethical considerations should be addressed regarding the use of emerging technologies in architecture, engineering, construction, the AEC industry, and in particular data privacy, cybersecurity, societal impact. What does that look like to you?
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question.
You know, I think that this is sort of an emerging concern and really in the last four or five years, it's really become very important for us and you know, our leadership across the industry where we are, it's a topic of discussion in many board meetings, in our executive leadership meetings and what have you. I think there is, there is a balance to be had between innovation and responsibility, and we're always looking for that. Where does that balance lie?
I think around when it comes to data privacy.
Yes, compliance with laws is a Must. But there is also considerations around informed consent even when laws don't exist. I think we have a duty and a responsibility towards our industry to make sure that we, when we are using, if we are using data that we have collected from clients or different agencies or what have you, we are, we are mindful of how we're using it and making sure that they are aware that we are using it. And it's, and it should be ideally to mutually beneficial outcomes. There's a lot of opportunities with mining information in certain ways, but we have to be able to do it in a, in a moral, ethical way.
I think anonymization of data is very important and it allows a lot of abilities to do research and analysis.
And really the goal should be the betterment of the industry.
So if we are anonymizing certain kinds of design processes or outcomes, than it really should be for the purpose of benefiting the industry.
And I think we still have a ways to go working with our technology partners and our industry peers and our clients to work in a collaborative way where it is mutually beneficial for everyone. And it's not just done in a, you know, on the side, in the shadows. I think that is, that's a responsibility that we have to take very, very seriously. Cybersecurity, obviously that's something that, that has tremendously already impacted our industry and some of our peers have, have experienced some major cybersecurity issues.
That's something we're very mindful of.
And interestingly, we are very vulnerable because we use so many systems that are interconnected. We have so many points of potential failure.
That's something that we have to, again, work with trusted vendor partners and we have to constantly be aware of what their cybersecurity posture is, what our cybersecurity vulnerabilities are.
We invest a lot of time and energy and resources on that topic.
And when it comes to societal impact, I think especially as we start to use more AI capabilities, generative AI capabilities, I think the opportunity or the challenge is really to make sure we don't have bias introduced. That is, that's not good for anybody.
So just to be mindful of that, that's important.
And you have to understand that it takes time to build trust into any kind of new technology and making sure that sometimes in our excitement to use something new, we lose track of fundamentals. And it's important to have those, for lack of a better term, our older and wiser generation around for a little bit longer. Right. To help guide and make sure that the Newer technologies are still being used in the right way, especially when it comes to technical calculations and making sure that the younger generation, in their enthusiasm of using new technologies, don't lose sight of those sound engineering practices or architectural design principles. Just because you know how to design something in a new software doesn't mean you generated a good design. Right, Right. So that's something that we have to always be mindful of.
[00:28:49] Speaker C: That was amazing.
I don't know if I have a lot to add and I love, I will reiterate some of the things I really love that you said in that, that eyes wide open, you know, when we're dealing with folks that everybody kind of knows where our stances are at and, and how we plan to use things and you know, the trusted partners, these are all things that, you know, anytime something new comes along, we don't know what badness might come out of it or, you know, what, what are those things until they happen. You know, what we do have is a history of seeing new technologies and new things happen, you know, and most of us were around before the Internet, you know, and kind of realize, okay, the Internet was a huge impact and here's a lot of ways that it could. It went wrong that we didn't expect when we first started it, you know, so there are some things that we can be prepared for.
It's a moving target. And to me, it's just about being vigilant and constantly re evaluating, you know, is this good or is this not good? And being open and honest with those things. Purposeful, thoughtful about what we're doing and not so Yahoo. Let's do it.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: That'S definitely a challenging topic. Thank you both.
All right, so last question.
Using your crystal ball, what is the one technology that you think will convert perfectly from some other industry over to engineering? And Pratibha, I'm going to ask you first.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Okay, so I had a. I was struggling with this one, Amaro.
So I've been tracking blockchain technology for several years and I think there is, you know, the whole bitcoin cryptocurrency saga sucks the oxygen in the room.
However, I think blockchain is one of those general purpose technologies that the value of which is yet to be realized.
So when I think about how it can be leveraged, and there are some other smart people and many smart people in the world that are looking at how potentially blockchain technologies can be used within the AC context.
And there are some good ideas out there, especially around thinking about smart contracts and even smart Cities. So if you think about how blockchain really works, it's about packets of information that are stored. And Todd, you were talking about earlier about how in the old days you design something and then a lot of things changed in the field, and it was just thinking about that. And throughout the asset life cycle, think about how many times we design components within a BIM model. Right.
And then things change in the field. And then during the life of the asset, things continue to change. Right. Components change.
And if we have an ability of tagging, crypto tagging, or encrypting certain kinds of information in a secure, reliable way, which is what blockchain is really all about, Right. About tagging pockets of information in ways that cannot or very difficult to alter or mess around with. Right.
Then you have this digital thread of information throughout an asset life cycle. And you can protect your intellectual property, you can limit your liabilities. So let's say something happens to that asset 50 years, years from now, you know, right now you automatically blame the designer, like there must be something wrong with the design. Well, we don't really know whether it was a design flaw or was it during construction or for lack of maintenance or what have you. So I think there, there are ways that blockchain can be used within our industry.
We have yet to figure out how. I think there was some interest in developing a BIM chain, but I haven't seen any commercial product come yet. But I think this is one where we might see something happen in the, in the next few years that's, that's going to apply and help advance our, our industry forward.
[00:33:36] Speaker C: I don't want to go too deep, so I'll just say I'm, I'm really curious about blockchain and IFC industry foundation classes, and if those things could go together, I think they would take off.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think so too.
[00:33:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Because that's really about having a data model, really that's vendor agnostic. Right?
[00:33:57] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: And have it in an industry standard way that can then be trusted, be trusted. And throughout the asset life cycle, which is in our case, in our industry, it's usually 100 years or plus. Right.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: That is absolutely not what I expected. So thank you. That is, that's a good one.
Todd, any insights from you?
[00:34:22] Speaker C: So often when I'm teaching what building information modeling is, I tell people that we're, we're building a little mini Internet for the building and when you need to know something that you can kind of Google the building and find out something about the building And I really take that further to just say, you know, that that Internet for the building needs to actually act a lot more like a search engine. Something that I can, at the very beginning of the project, say I'm interested in building a high school in this area and be able to use mass data and pull out and say, you know, what land prices here, where are all the kids at? How far do they have to go? What safety concerns are there? There's so many layers of questionings that when we're talking about shortening the design that we can pretty efficiently find, like the top three spots are find the number one spot, like, this is just really great spot to have it. The cost is a little bit higher, but here's all the payoffs in the end. So I'm not even into design yet. I'm actually just picking a site then. And when that site is picked up, I'm actually researching in there as well. I'm using that same technology, that same technology of being able to harvest big data, to say, okay, well, what are the codes here? What codes apply and what things do I need to do for this particular school? And I can activate different things that happen to contact the right people to do the right things.
Right now Google has Google Maps and that there's pictures of everything. There's all this information, there's all this data in the world.
And what we need is to take that same technology of search engines and apply it to building design and stuff. It is the ability to find out just what I need to find out and apply it very directly.
There's an idea of a building seed that is not my idea, but it was something that came up a long time ago, like, well, this is a high school seed. If I plant the seed in this location, what is the best way for this to grow? So if you plant a seed for a tree in a location, a tree will definitely grow. But if you plant that same seed someplace else, a different tree will grow because it's aware of its environment, how much sun it gets, how much water it gets. The same thing's true for buildings. You know, if I want to put a high rise in different places, we can actually foresee some of those things just by harvesting the appropriate data. So when I say there's a lot of data out there, there's so much data, there's no information.
And so applying search engine technology to the building industry is a way to pull the information out of all the data that's there and just jumpstart everything.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, Todd, it might not be very far off, but I think so. I mean, I've seen applications that do that, or at least a portion of it, but they.
It's a lot of effort to store and manage that data.
Right. And it's just like so far it's been done in a very structured data way. And I think with some of the newer data warehousing capabilities that are coming into the market and becoming more and more prevalent and the integration of chat, GPT kind of OpenAI kind of considerations, I think there will be some ways in the future, not in the near future, hopefully, to be able to mine that information faster. Right now, just the amount of effort it takes to collect that data and to analyze it is extraordinary.
And it's quite expensive.
But it'll be interesting to see how those capabilities evolve with newer technologies where it can probably be done faster and you'll be able to ask way more questions than you can ask today.
[00:38:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I get. What I really desire is a lot of what we do in design is not about forwarding the design at all. It's about all these things that we have to do.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: You know, and as we bring new technologies on board, I'm really interested in the ones that kind of take the toil of our work away and let us be creative and, and let us think of do the what ifs and do what we really do best and interacting with our clients and figuring things out instead of, well, I don't know, there's. I'm going to put all this energy into finding things out. So there's a lot of our job that I'm seeing something on the Internet the other day about, you know, what I really need AI to do is my dishes so I can go and do something fun. You know, know, you know, it's taking away my fun stuff, not my, like what I want to do. So I hear you. Lots of, lots of possibilities. Let's see if we get our dishes done.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I hear both. Yeah, definitely the dishes.
So good, good, good points. Thank you both.
So it was an absolute pleasure to chat with both of you. I appreciate your time today.
That was Todd Shackelford and Pratibha Basrao from HDR talking about everything from AI to data analytics to workforce development. I appreciate you both being here today.
[00:39:49] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Amaro.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Great. Well, for more information on new products, the codes and standards that guide them, and similar technology topics, visit Consulting Specifying Engineer at www.c.csemag.com. thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time. Goodbye.
