[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Consulting Specifying Engineer podcast. I'm your host Amara Rosgas and I've connected with Andy Smith and Mark Bigbee, both of Jordan and Scala engineers. We'll be talking today about electric vehicles. Thanks for joining me today, Mark and.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Andy, pleased to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: Definitely. Thank you for having us and for this conversation.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Great.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Well, let me give you a little bit of background so you know more about these experts.
Andy Smith is the managing principal of Jordan and Scala with more than 31 years of experience in the engineering consulting industry.
Since joining the firm, he has led the H VAC department in the Charlotte office, pioneered the Dallas office, and overseen the establishment of the Denver, Florida and Houston offices and the Sustainability Services department.
Mark Bigbe is a licensed professional engineer in 49 states and has more than 25 years of experience.
He currently serves as principal in the Dallas office where he oversees the entire Western electrical discipline.
All right, Mark, so let me get started here with kind of a general overview question.
What factors need to be considered when assessing a commercial building's electrical capacity for integrating EV charging stations?
[00:01:29] Speaker C: I'd say for existing buildings a few considerations include how much available electrical capacity exists in a building.
This can be determined from the electric utility demand load information for the previous year, a 12 month billing history.
From that we're able to determine how much energy is being used and how much is available based on the electrical systems capacity.
Another consideration is electrical room locations within a building and the ability to add feeders, panels and branch circuits to serve EV charging stations.
A third consideration would be existing electrical distribution system equipment and the amount of circuit breaker space available to add new circuits for EV charging stations.
So there's a few considerations I can think of right off, but I'm sure there's more that we could get into.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Andy, tell me, what are the regulatory or code implications for where EV chargers can be installed?
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question because it's been really confusing based on a jurisdictional basis. Whether you're in Vermont or Dallas, Texas or Atlanta, Georgia, there's so much variation and a lot of it is an interpretation by the local code.
You know, officials who are reviewing the plans or the inspectors in the field who have their own perspective on what they like or don't like to see. And there is somewhat of a lack of codes really focused on EV. But in 2017, the National Electrical Code did come up with an article called 625.
Article 625 really just focuses on the EV power transfer so it's basically making sure that you're minimizing electric shock and making sure there's not a fire. And it also focuses on, sometimes you might see on TV or like a Ford commercial or something where, you know, you can actually plug in for a power source.
So it also mentions that. But as far as the day to day legislation, there's really not a whole lot that says what you can or cannot do.
As far as the actual EV location and the equipment. There's nothing in code that says you cannot put an EV charger in a parking garage.
And also, you know, some cities and some, I wouldn't say states, but most cities are starting to evaluate the need for parking and providing minimum number of ev. And so there's some future proofing going on. And so there might be some requirements by certain jurisdictions that says you have to have a certain percentage of EV charging. And I wouldn't be surprised in the near future if you start seeing home builders being required to have EV ready homes. We already have solar ready homes to future proof that. So again, I wouldn't be surprised if you see that in, in the coming future.
And some other things to think about is, you know, when you go to an EV charger, if you have an EV and you're driving up to a parking space and you're ready to charge your vehicle, a couple of things really are important. You want to make sure that you have, you know, a distance from your EV to combustible items such as gas pumps, fossil fuel items. And so a lot of the inspectors might be picky and say you in one city might be, you got to be 15ft. Another one might think they need to be 25ft. And so there's a lot of education. You really need to meet with the authority, having jurisdiction and discuss with them really face to face as to what the requirements are going to be. And it can change based on year to year, month to month, based on those inspectors and those plan reviewers, based on rotation of staff that they have. So always do your due diligence and check and see what they're recommending. And one last thing to mention, Amara, is a lot of times in parking garages they're told, well, you can't put them in a garage because it's enclosed. Well, a lot of times you may group those EV chargers together for a lot of different reasons. A developer might do that.
And already in our code, mechanical code, we're required to ventilate garages that are enclosed. So we already have to have mechanical ventilation, fans we already have to have detectors or analyzers of combustible gases in those garages would energize those fans. So that technology is already in place. It really is irrelevant whether or not you have an electric vehicle versus gas.
But again, many do like to have a certain distance between combustibles and the EV charging equipment.
[00:06:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: And Mark, anything from your end Andy.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Mentioned, you know, like future proofing and how we can design in extra capacity, which I'll definitely talk about in a little while. And of course the codes, the national Electrical codes code section 625. So there's a lot involved into what we have to do and take into consideration for ev.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
Let's talk about upgrades. What kind of upgrades to the electrical panels or other building infrastructure might be necessary to support these EV charging stations? Mark, I know this is kind of part of your expertise.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: Well, depending upon the scope of the EV charging desired, you know, there are going to be different levels of how much somebody wants where it's located, things like that. Again, this is relative to existing buildings. The upgrades could be as simple as adding a few additional circuits to an existing branch circuit panel or panels and, and the wiring from those panels to the EV charging equipment. That could be a straightforward and simple, you know, add to a building.
On the other hand, as you can imagine, an infrastructure upgrade could be quite complex and costly, beginning with new or upgraded electrical utility service, new electrical feeders for that service, possibly upgraded or new main switch gear or other new distribution equipment which would include additional feeders and branch circuit panel boards. So it could get very complex and costly very quick.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Now Andy, you talked about location, but what specific factors should be considered when determining the placement of, of EV chargers?
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah, so you know, it comes really is going to be based on a per project basis. But of course you want to locate anything requiring power of this sort as close as you can to the electrical room, the main electrical room at the building. So if you look at the floor plan of a building and you know, where the electrical rooms are going to be at, you know, you want to, you know, try to locate it near them. But of course, a lot of times developers want to have the EV charging where it's visible from people driving by or driving up to the building, you know, they're the gold shiny star everybody wants to show off. So it shows a, an intent to be sustainable and provide a service that's much needed. And right now there's actually a lack of charging out there, but being close to the, to the electrical room is one big item.
The other thing is flow patterns of traffic. You know, as you drive into a parking lot or pulling out, you know, you don't want to be, you know, creating an interference to other tenants in the building or retail shopping, wherever it might be. You really need to work with your architect and make sure that the traffic patterns and flow through those lots aren't going to create an inconvenience and really a nuisance to those who are there to work every day or there to basically just park their car and go to their office space.
And accessibility is another one that's really often forgotten.
And it's really important to provide the added space that's needed to allow for a handicap van or vehicle to be able to pull up and charge their vehicle also.
And so you need to have the space to do that.
And when you're locating EV charger, it's really important to not forget about the value of putting signage up. You know, when you, when you're looking for EV charging, is it even available? You want to have signage that's going to pop. You want to have painting on the, on graphics on the, on the ground, on the wall of a garage or a wall of a building or a, some signage of a post with pedals like a, you know, pedestal mounted sign.
Graphics are one way to really help, help somebody locate those EV chargers and feel comfortable using them. Because when you park your vehicle for charging, you might be sitting in your vehicle for that 20, 40 minutes while it charges back up. You want to make sure it's going to be a secure, well lit space and you don't want to be in an area that may encourage vandalism and theft of the equipment or of somebody just, you know, creating a theft on another person just because they're sitting there innocent as a victim of this crime, just sitting there in their car, trying to charge their vehicle. And the other thing to think about for location is weight.
You don't realize it, but an ev, the batteries weigh a good bit. And so when you start to group a lot of these EVs together in one area, make sure that if they're on a elevated above grade that the structural engineer understands what is going to be parked on that parking garage level and, and how many vehicles and they will be able to make sure that you have, you know, a secure structure that can support that that way. So again, there's a lot of things that go into locating where the EV chargers go.
And you know, like in the building that we're in that I, I Work out of here. In Dallas, we have EV chargers out on the street in front of our building, but we also have them in a parking garage. They didn't locate them just in one location. They knew some people were going to be in the garage parking where some others might be wanting to just drive up and park. So they kind of disconnected the passerbys where they can park as they pull up to the building versus those who use the building for their office space. They actually go in the garage and they can charge their vehicles in there.
So hopefully, hopefully that helps answer that question.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of good points there, Andy. Thank you.
All right, Mark, crystal ball time.
What steps can be taken to future proof the integration of EV charging in a commercial building and that would allow for scalability as the demand grows.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Future proofing and scalability, that's a loaded question.
Sort of a step into the unknown. Right.
The question lends to new buildings, obviously, as it may not necessarily apply to existing buildings with limited available capacity or existing buildings that would require costly and invasive site and infrastructure rework. So considerations would include initial cost versus revenue potential.
I think about long term ownership of the property and the evolution of EV technology. We really don't know where it's going to go as far as how we charge vehicles and what all is going to be available in the years to come.
So the question is, how much is enough? Right.
You would begin an initial design and a reasonable amount of electrical capacity, factoring in maybe 25 to 30% of the parking spaces to be EV capable, possibly more.
How much is enough or how much is too much? Again, we have to look at the cost versus, you know, income, revenue, potential.
You have to provide incoming main service and switchboard capacity for the anticipated loads and extend empty conduit pathways to electrical rooms and locations to efficiently serve the designated EV spaces. Andy touched on it. As far as location of electrical rooms, that's so important because the closer we get to those EV spaces, the less the cost is to put in the electrical to serve them. You'd have to allocate space for future distribution panels and you'd have to include empty conduit pathways to parking locations in the field.
You know, the cost will then be assessed and addressed by the building owners to determine best value for the upfront investment. I mean, it could go, you know, way out there, or it could be a pretty straightforward and simple, you know, need.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Let me, let me chime in for a second, Mark.
You know, I'll just, just give a quick example. You know, Amara, let's say you have an option of choosing two places to live. On one side of the street they have plenty of EV charging capability. And you drive an EV or you're thinking about buying an EV and right now about 50% of everybody buying a car is considering EV. It's the highest it's ever been and it's growing exponentially. But if you go to one side of the street, you have a nice apartment building where you can charge up most of the time when you need to, but on the other side of the street, they have none. You know, which one would you choose? And as a developer, they have to make these decisions now early on in a project and often they fail to communicate the conversation about EV with the building, with the building management companies.
So the management companies know what the tenants need, but often it's forgotten and not communicated during the design process. So the, the MEP engineers are designing the project to permitting it and they're about to issue for construction to find out, oh my gosh, the management company just told the owner that we got to have, you know, eight chargers in the front of the building.
Well, that's a big change to our design. And so it's really important to make these decisions up front. And it's so more economical to put it in up front than it is later on. We'll talk more about price in a little bit. But you know, Mark, when we talk about, you know, the choices that we have on how to future proof something, you really have to think hard because that could be what makes or breaks the success of a development.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Absolutely agree. Great points, Andy.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: And to follow that train of thought, Andy, do electric vehicles often include some sort of backup power like for power outages?
[00:16:09] Speaker B: So, you know, a lot of people ask that question and it's kind of funny to me because I was coming back From Houston about 15 years ago, driving back to Dallas and there's a tropical storm and I needed to fill my tank up. Regular fossil fuel tank, low octane gas. And the power went out at the gas station.
I was trapped. I could not, I cannot fill my car up because those pumps are shut down either during hurricanes or when they lose power. They're not operable. So it's really not much different from electric versus gas.
If the power goes out, the answer is no, you're not charging your vehicle anymore.
But on ev, when the power does come back on, there is a rebooting of the equipment that takes a little bit of time, but it also has to reconnect to the Internet connection. And that Internet connection is often sketchy on that rebooting. But also a lot of times that's probably the weakest link. It's not the power that we have to worry about is the Internet connection that's allowing you to process the billing and turning on and turning off and charging you for the electric that you're using for the power.
And but with that said, there are large companies, manufacturing and so forth that use, you know, they have batteries that they charge up for their vehicles for fleets, but when the power goes out, they just don't charge.
It's, it'd be an expensive investment to do diesel or natural gas generators just to create a backup source of electricity to charge vehicles. We just don't see it done.
And I think you're going to look into 10, 15 years in the future.
Whether it's battery technology changes or we actually, we're not talking about hydrogen fuel today. But those first responders, they can't rely on non reliable power or source. So typically they will be still fossil fuel, at least for now.
And, but in the future it could be electric or it could be hydrogen in that case.
But you know, it is one of those things where when you're choosing the EV manufacturer, there's a lot out there. There's ChargePoint, Tesla Blink, Siemens, ABB, there's a whole bunch EVgo, there's one called Zeal X EAL, that's the only one I know of that does not require Internet connection. It uses your cell phone connectivity, using cellular to purchase your power and close out when you're done charging your vehicle. So it's really important when you talk about backup of power, you can't do much with the electricity, but you definitely can do a lot with understanding what EV charging equipment you're using and what their pitfalls are if and when the power or really the Internet is what we need to be focused on.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, that's a lot to consider, Andy.
And you just mentioned this, Andy, what's the approximate cost associated with installing an EV charger and I guess per parking spot, what does that look like?
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so like depending on what level charging you're wanting to do, you know, we talked about future proofing of putting the conduit and having that for future in your home. That's a level one type charging. But you know, and most people do charge their vehicle at night. No different Amara, than when you go home at night, go to bed, you probably charge your phone when you're sleeping. So there has to be a way to charge but as far as the cost goes, these are some of the parameters you do need to consider for cost. One is, is it going to be a wall mounted charger on a, like a retaining wall? Is it going to be on a pedestal or is it going, you know, going to bollards?
And then you got to ask yourself what brand charger are you going to go with?
The average charger is probably, if I had a guess, around $4,000.
And the, the equipment that comes that you also have to buy all, all in is around another $800 for the cable retractor if it's wall mounted.
And then there's software subscriptions that the user doesn't think about when they go plug up, charge up their car. They wonder why is it charging me $4 an hour for the first four hours and then $5 after that? Well, there is an expense to having this equipment and it has to have return on investment for the owner. And so in that case there is software that has to be, it's an annual subscription.
And then you also have to have all this equipment shipped to the site.
There's the MEP design fees, there's permitting fees. You know, we're all engineers, so we're talking about MEP engineering. But there's architectural scope included in that. Then you got to go to construction, you got to commission what is being in what's been installed to make sure it's working the way it's intended.
And a lot of EV contractors out there do that.
And we have good relationships with a whole bunch of good EV contractors, which we learn a lot by talking to them. And that's how I kind of got a feel as an engineer, what this stuff really costs. And there's also ongoing maintenance and service to these pieces of equipment. That's why I say if you have an Internet connectivity relationship that's required, that's going to cost more than a charger that doesn't have that. Or if you don't have Internet reception and you got to bring conduit underground up into the building, up to the roof to an antenna to provide good Internet connectivity, that's going to be even more. But I would say an average for a level two, having two vehicle, having one vehicle charging equipment to service two cars, it would be around 18 to $25,000 range. And that's for a level two. If you start going to the higher level three, you're probably going to be looking at around 24,000, as high as 30,000 on retrofit situations where you don't have power and you got to bring power to your site and then do all the infrastructure underground. So I would tell you a good rule of thumb is 18 to 25 on new ground up developments. It would get you in the ballpark and 24 to 30,000 if it's a level three more of a fast charging piece of equipment. And in that case you're paying more because of everything else pretty much stays the same. It's just you pay more for the equipment and you're bringing more power into the site. So the total connected electrical loads all go up which impacts the, the cost.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: So there are a lot of layers here to think about. It sounds like yes.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot to think about on ev and it's evolving, it's still changing and you know, there's, there's new technologies coming out all the, all the time on trying to enhance battery life and recycling of batteries. There's also a, another component of how do you get enough chargers where they really are needed.
Right now most people charge at home, but when you're taking a road trip, you know, how many do we need and where do we put them? So it all goes back to a lot of the questions we discussed today.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Sure, sure. So you probably each have a little bit of time to yourself to do something fun.
Mark, what's one fun thing about you?
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Oh, fun fact about Mark. Well, I grew up an avid skateboarder in the 70s dating myself and eventually I got into snow skiing in the 80s.
When I first saw a snowboarder on the ski slopes in the winter of 1990, it was like an obvious must for me to get into snowboarding being a skateboarder. So I have enjoyed snowboarding with my children for many, many years and I actually will soon be enjoying the experience with my grandchildren as well. So I, I cannot wait for that. And I'm excited about, and I love, I love getting out on the slopes and snowboarding.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Very nice, very nice. And Andy, tell me about your daughter. Are you doing anything exciting with her this summer?
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so my daughter really enjoys music and I'm just a proud parent. I've got two kids that keep me busy. My son, I just drove back from college this past Friday from Tennessee and my daughter's about to graduate high school and about two years ago she really got involved in music and so she actually, she and her, her band through School of Rock, they actually were invited to play at Summerfest up in Milwaukee, which is one of the largest music venues for festivals around the country. I think it may be the largest or longest festival and should be on one of the headliner stages like Motley Crue and Goo Goo Dolls and a lot of other cool bands that I listened to when I was growing up. So I'm going up there to watch her just because it's just gonna be so much fun to see her up on the big stage, take some pictures.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Summerfest is awesome. Agreed.
All right, well, thank you, Mark. Thank you, Andy. It was an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Thank you, Amar. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate the opportunity to share some of our experience on ev.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you, Amara. We really appreciate it.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: And that was Andy Smith and Mark Bigbee of Jordan and Scala engineers talking about EV charging stations.
For more information on electrical systems, EV charging stations, and the related codes and standards, visit Consulting specifying
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thanks for listening and catch you next time.
